Bespreking:Mons

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Ek het hierdie gesprek gelees (onder), en ek dink nou...

 Afrikaanssprekendes én Nederlandstaligen, wat is daar mis? Wat doen jull(i)e nou? 

Die Afrikaanses, wat baie boos word as hulle stede en dorpies van naam word verander deur die ANC, die die naam van Tshwane nie kan lees nie deur haat, die ... ens, ens, ens.

De Nederlanders, jullie noemen Lille geen Rijsel, maar jullie weigeren om Friesland zijn bij zijn officiële naam te noemen. (Fryslân) (sien waarom hieronder)

Ons (in die Lae Lande en Karibies gebied) noem Pretoria ook Pretoria. Ons sal deur ons taalreëls (vastgestel deur die Nederlandse Taalunie) nooit Tshwane aksepteer nie. En deur hierdie reël sal Nelspruit ook Nelspruit bly.

Waarom sal ons ander name gebruik vir plaase, provinsies en lande as ons eie benamings/name? Ons praat Nederlands en Afrikaans, nie Frans, Engels, Xhosa, Venda, ens.

In Nederlands is dit duidelik:

• Bergen is Bergen (Mons)
• Pretoria is Pretoria (Tshwane)
• Friesland is Friesland (Fryslân)

Maar wat doen Afrikaans? Ek het gedink die Afrikaanses veg baie harder vir hul taal as die Nederlanders doen?

Baie dankie. --I90Christian (kontak) 17:11, 2 Januarie 2011 (UTC)

Afrikaans speakers don't have much connection with Europe (Afrikaans) and I have never met someone more proud of their language than the Afrikaners. But how can you continue to enforce a name that has no official status? Only old, rural signs still say Pietersburg, when you hear the media talk about Polokwane each day of course you are going to eventually, without you knowing, call it that. Pretoria bly Pretoria, although Tshwane municipality has a black majority, Tshwane isn't official yet. Nelspruit is currently still at Nelspruit because media call it Nelspruit. Your arguments are unclear? I just came back from Holiday in Belgium, and on the journey back in Vlaanderen the signs say Rijsel (Lille), as well as Duinkerke (Dunkerque), it seems that Rijsel is losing it's touch to Lille. Ben Bezuidenhout (kontak) 18:44, 2 Januarie 2011 (UTC)

Laat ek begin met die punt van die Belgiese plekname. Dis reg, wat jy sê, daar staan in Vlaandere Duinkerke (Dunkerque) op die borde. Dit kom deur die tweetaligheid van België. Dit het niks te doen nie met 'n afname van die gebruik van die Nederlandse plekname. As jy van Parys na Antwerpen gaan, lees jy in Wallonië Anvers (Antwerpen). Dis net andersom. Ek stem saam met jou dat Rijsel net in Vlaandere en in die Suide van Nederland word gebruik. Die andere gebruik nooit Rijsel of Lille, hulle hoef hierdie plek nie te besoek nie. Dus: Das kommt nicht im Frage.

Maar ek stem nie saam met jou nie dat ons ons eie name moet weggooi. Ons (in NL én SA) gebruik VS(A) vir die US(A). Hierdie name is baie vaak vertalings van die oorspronklike name. Die Nederlandse Taalunie het beslis ons gebruik (in Nederlands) ons eie spelling en vertalige van die geografiese name, so ons gebruik Berlijn en nie Berlin, of Londen ipv London, VSA vir USA ens.

Die oorsprong van hierdie reël lê nie soos baie mense dink in die buiteland, maar die oorsprong lê in die Nederlandse binneland. Sedert 1998 is baie oorspronkelike Nederlandse name verander in Fryske/Friese name, in die provinsie Friesland (Fryslân). Die Nederlandse spellinge (met 'n uitsonding: Fryslân in regeringsdokumente) bly die Nederlandse spelling. Net die Nederlandse spelling IN Friesland is verander in 'n Friese spelling. Maar daar kom nou ook egte wysigings - soos in ZA - in Friesland. Die hoofstad Leeuwarden word miskien nou gewysig in Ljouwert en dis nie net 'n spellingswysiging, so miskien word die geografiese taalreël uitgebreid.

Maar om na vertalings te gaan. NET die Nederlandse vertalings van buitelandse en fryske name is (in die NEDERLANDSE taal) toegestaan. Verseker by plekke wat oorspronkelik gestig is met 'n Nederlandse naam; soos met BERGEN, DIS GESTIG MET 'N NEDERLANDSE NAAM. Ek dink Afrikaans moet dit ook doen. En dit sal dadelik gebeur as Afrikaans gaan toetree tot die Nederlandse Taalunie --I90Christian (kontak) 17:22, 4 Januarie 2011 (UTC)

Titel

dit is berge of bergen (vanuit nederlands) in afrikaans, moenie franse benamingen overneem in afrikaans nie, als hier 'n nederlandse (germaanse, van die zustertaal afkomstige) benaming voor is!– Hierdie ongetekende kommentaar is deur 83.82.135.115 (Bespreking • Bydraes) gelewer.

I agree, I would rather use Dutch naming conventions with Belgium town names, if the Dutch name is not Archaic or Historic. Another Question is the name of towns in France (particullary in Northern France). Places in the Pas-de-Calais region, most have Dutch names that are still in use, however, I am against changing names of other cities in france, just the ones with common Dutch names.--Ben Bezuidenhout (kontak) 17:23, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

Our readers have already voted on this issue: The article about Frankryk has made the top ten list, while Nederland and België are not even among the top 100. The ayes (frankophiles) have it. French place and family names are part of South African culture, and most readers will agree that the Dutch names for lesser known towns are of little or no practical value, and apart from the Dutch Wikipedia, not one single project has ever used them. The majority of travel and other literature available to Afrikaans-speaking readers will be in English, with French place names given. While Brussel and Luik are acceptable, Bergen, Hoei, Doornik and so on are rather meaningless outside of Belgium and the Netherlands. --Voyageur (kontak) 18:51, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

I see your point, but how far do we go with the names? Luik and Brussel are acceptable, and what about Lille/Rijsel (or even Rysel!) - but it seems odd an Afrikaans person coming to France, and calling them by their Dutch names, but another question is what about Dunkerque/Duinkerke(n)/Dunkirk/Dunkirche? Towns like Dunkerque are like Milaan and Turyn, and often have other names in other languages (of which English cities, except London, always use the English name). But then again, in responce to your comment, it is all very true and I agree firmly with what you are saying, but surely there is more Dutch influence/family names/place names than there are French. I am suprised that Nederland and Belgie are not in the top 100 (I do believe you), but it's strange when we find that our most populat articles are sex related? I to some extent agree that towns with 'older' or 'underused' Dutch names, new towns in Wallonia, or very small towns/villages should keep their French names. Then again, this brings the painful realisation that there is another languages among all this. The native one. Should Charleroi be moved to the wallonian name? or be kept as the french name? It's all very confusing. --Ben Bezuidenhout (kontak) 20:23, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

By the way Voyageur, I was wondering if I could aquire the link about the most popular aticles on Wikipedia. It would greatly increase my understanding of what needs work.--Ben Bezuidenhout (kontak) 20:25, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Here are the links for the

• Daily Top 100,
• Monthly Top Thousand and
• Yearly Top 1000

Maybe we should concentrate on articles like Sex in France, History of sexual intercourse in South Africa and Largest male genitals in history to boost our readership? Joking aside, these statistics merely reflect the fact that a large part of our readership are younger people who move toward becoming adults. I must admit I know next to nothing about sex education in South Africa, and there are probably not many Afrikaans-language publications young people can refer to.

As to place names, Brussel, Luik and Duinkerk are acceptable because these cities have played a major role in history - we may expect that a considerable number of readers will be able to identify these places with their Afrikaans and/or Dutch names. The parents of a friend of mine (with virtually no knowledge of French) drove around Belgium for some hours because they expected to see Lüttich exit signs somewhere along the road - which of course did not happen... That's what I have in mind when complaining about irrelevant place names that do not appear on road signs... ;)

Rijsel may be fine with some historians who also happen to be medieval linguists, but I doubt that this name has any practical value for users of a modern encyclopedia. There may be more difficult cases which can be discussed before or after an article is written.

The Walloon language is anything but a lingua franca for conversation with foreigners. We may draw readers' attention to the fact that there is a native variety of French and give Walloon place names, but French will be the language to be used when choosing titles.

By the way, have a look inside the Lithuanian Wikipedia. Lithuanians translate virtually everything to their own language, even foreign names. --Voyageur (kontak) 20:59, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

Your Lüttich story sounds like my Uncle who thought Ausgang was a city. But yes, I have always found Lithuanian wikipedia confusing, and if you have any knowledge, do they actually call these towns by these names?? But beside to the point. I think a list should be created, and an official site or wikipedia project page should be created to sort out Afrikaans naming conventions. Currently, it's just make up as you go, and I think a page should be created for any discussion involving naming a town/city/region/river/country. So far this is my 'Wallonia/Frankryk' list:

Afrikaans name	Native name	Agree with Af. Name (Yes)	Disagree with Af. Name (No)	Yes/No ratio
Parys	Paris	1		1:0
Luik	Liege
Brussel	Bruxells/Brüssel/Brussels
Duinkerke or Duinkerken	Dunkerque

A table like above would help? Feel free to play around with this table, I don't think i've quite made it correct. I hope this helps, and thank you for the links!

Yes, in Lithuanian place names must have male or female endings. -ius and -as would be male endings, like in Vilnius and Berlynas. But one should not expect that a foreign ending serves the same purpose! When I watched television a few weeks ago, I wondered about the episode of an American TV series that was dubbed by just one Lithuanian speaker (like they do in Poland). He also read the intro, complete with actors' names, and when the title - Las Vegas - appeared, he dubbed it Las Vegasas! --Voyageur (kontak) 22:00, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

Strange, Latvians call it Lasvegasa? Latvian and Lithuanian are always confusing for me, especially when I must tell them apart. I also just had a conversation with my Papa, and he has very strange Afrikaans names for places. That's the problem with Afrikaans, is that the language varies so much from place to people. He says Parys, Berlyn, Duinkerke, Milaan, Luik, Brugge, Gent, Londen etc. but then again, he says Mexiko, Wenen, Antwerp, Brussels, Turin. My parents use the same names with each other, and it seems a strange mix. But this brings me back to my point that I have an aunt (and her husband) who are Afrikaans speaking (they never speak Dutch to each other) and they live in Riemst, eastern Belgium. They know Dutch to be able to converse with neighbors, but they always call towns by their Afrikaans names, such as Wezet (Visé), Luik etc, however none of my family (Aunt or Parents) say Rijsel instead of Lille. --Ben Bezuidenhout (kontak) 22:20, 19 Augustus 2009 (UTC)

Bostaande besprekings bied geen rede waarom die artikel onder "Mons" moet wees nie. Die plek heet "Bergen" in Afrikaanse boeke, dus is dit "Bergen". Anrie (kontak) 08:08, 20 Augustus 2009 (UTC)